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steveoifer

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Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 9,228
Reply with quote  #1 
Quote:

unlike the majority of the folks on the EM forums I've been exposed to




So as not to hijack the thread dedicated to Eileen, I am forming this thread, in response to something said by Michelle on Eileen's memorial thread (A Great Loss).

Michelle, you mentioned that most Mastiff forum members judged a person by the dog breed that was chosen or owned.

In my experience, that is inaccurate and false!

Many Mastiff forum members own, or have owned, a number of breeds other than the Mastiff.

In my view, you are jaded because of the American Mastiff issue, which if viewed objectively, you will find that few Mastiff forum members are attacking specific dogs, or owners of such dogs.

Where you get confused, is when the American Mastiff owner/breeder is inventing a storyline for their cross, which does not warrant the claims made by those individuals promoting that cross.

Then, and only then, do several Mastiff fanciers take issue with those individuals and refute false claims & attributes!

The majority of Mastiff owners & forum members hold no contempt for the dogs themselves, as they are innocent and can make wonderful pets in many instances.

The conflict arises, only when erroneous claims are made about the American, which injures the Mastiff proper and flies in the face of reality.

It's when the purveyors of such nonsense refuse to understand the damage caused by such false information, coupled to the name usurped from our breed & revisionism used to validate false beliefs, is when we take umbrage!

I don't believe Eileen would have agreed with your statement regarding Mastiff folks. Most have very generous hearts regarding other breeds & other species!

__________________


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
shannon

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Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 237
Reply with quote  #2 
Well said!  I have owned several mixed breeds in the past of all shapes and sizes.  I also work with rescue groups and my local spca to help ALL dogs find a perfect home and protect them from their abusers.  I do love the mastiff breed and my 2 goons own my heart, but I also love those who need it and never had it.

MichelleParlier

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #3 
I'm Michelle Parlier.  Just wanted to respond to this thread as best and as sincerely as I can.... to the best of my personal ability.  I sincerely apologe that this post ended up being so long.   

 

Steve….

 

This will be my one and only post on this subject.  I do apologize to all that this post ended up being so incredibly long. If my response does not suffice, we can take this to a private conversation (this includes anyone else who wants to discuss this).  I have absolutely zero intention on starting another AM/EM "debate" or whatever you want to call it. 

 

Steve, I will agree with only one thing that you mentioned:  This is because of the "American Mastiff" issue.  Absolutely!

 

Never on any EM forum, have I witnessed anyone being attacked or called "stupid" or "uneducated," or being accused of "burying their heads on the sand," etc,  for just owning a specific dog breed…. UNLESS it is an AMERICAN Mastiff!  If you truly think otherwise, I would suggest you go back and re-read ALL the threads and posts regarding the American Mastiff on all the EM boards.  You know, as well as I do, that there are an incredibly ridiculous number of threads/posts on the EM forums which paint a very graphic, disturbing and completely UNPROVEN and UNSUBSTANTIATED picture of the supposedly "aggressive" AM!! 

 

Also shown are many EM breeder'' sites (with the "negate Designer Breed" logos" which also include "blogs" of supposed discussions with disgruntled AM owners.  Again, I contacted these breeders and asked them MULTIPLE times to share with these supposed "disgruntled" AM owners my personal contact information.  To date, I have NEVER received any contacts from these supposed "disgruntled AM owners!!"  I've received ONLY  negative feedback from these BREEDERS!.  Again, I have the email to prove the correspondance.   

 

Just a quickie personal example:  I will remind you of a post of mine from a while ago.   A little history… I know several folks who work with EM rescue (especially since I've adopted two).  I was informed of an AM owner who filled out a surrender form on an EM rescue site.    I contacted the coordinator of that particular rescue in that particular state and offered to help in any way that I could.  I told her who I was (not that I'm really anybody important,  but I do own the only AM website and forum and do know each and every AMBC-approved breeder). I absolutely do not blame the coordinator for not wanting to give me the contact info of the person who wanted to surrender the dog.  I asked if she would please give MY info to the AM owner.  I tried to reassure her that the breeder will absolutely take the dog back without question (I have previously personally been involved with several of these "transactions," so I know this as the truth!).    The ONLY response I received was a major attack and belittling for being just an OWNER of an AM!   Steve, if you don't believe me… I have the emails to prove it.  I also ask that you view the websites of the forum members/EM breeders sites regarding the "Anti-Designer Breed" logo (which was created on this EM site and the other EM website).  Again, the unsubstantiated attacks on AMs and their owners is beyond reprehensible.

 

I will apologize for only one thing:  I had absolutely NO intention of bringing up the AM/EM ridiculousness on Eileen's thread.  I was honestly completely and utterly shocked and beyond heartbroken by her passing and wanted to publicly "thank her" for being such a incredibly wonderful, caring, open-minded and extremely kind lady who couldn't care less if a breed was "acceptable" to others or not.  The DOG itself was her focus.  She was always very sweet and kind towards me.  She never judged… at all!!  I completely respected her for that, and will never forget her for that!!! She was a very classy lady!  I respected her immensely and will absolutely miss her!!!  She was one of a very few like her!!   

 

Steve, as you posted this off of Eileen's thread…. I wanted to address your earlier question regarding the "differences" between my EMs and AMs. I will try to give a quick summary.   In complete honesty… I didn't originally reply because I'm really over the EM/AM crap… AND I think it's unfair to try to judge my dogs, as all but one are rescues.  BUT, if you really want an "answer" to your questions,  I'll try to break down their individual personalities in a super-quick summary:

 

AM Murphy: 7-1/2 yrs old from Flying W Farms..  CGC and Certified Therapy dog since age 1.  He's the only dog since I was a kid who I've gotten as a puppy.  He's my "heart" dog.  Totally and utterly lovable and devoted.  Loves everyone and everything he's ever met!  Very laid back and gentle.  A very sensitive boy.   Tolerates everyone and everything.  Size:  Approx 33-34" at the shoulder and 211 pounds.  Very neat eater and drinker.  Doesn't drool, per say.  Absolulely ZERO health issues.

 

EM Maggie:  Rescue.  Will be 7 in October. Adopted at age 14 mos.  Product of puppymill.  Not socialized properly.  Abused.  Took over 4 mos for foster mom to be able to touch her.  To date, I am still the only one who can touch her.  Still extremely fearful and pathologically shy.  She can now walk through the neighborhood with me without completely freaking out at everything (i.e. birds overhead!)..  As many know, she attacked and killed my 90-pound epileptic GSD mix. She has also attacked my epileptic AM boy.   Is she a "bad" dog?  No.  She's a dog.  It's "survival of the fittest."  Don't worry… after she attacked my epileptic AM boy, they're always separated when not immediately 1000% supervised.  She's the major mama's girl!  Major allergies (food, enviornmental, medication)!  Size:  Approx 31 at the shoulder and 170 pounds.  Very neat eater and drinker.  Doesn't drool, per se.

 

EM Frankie:  Rescue.  Severely underweight when rescued (130 lbs.  Should have been at least 180 lbs).  Couldn't walk more than 3-5 steps (bilateral blown knees).  I adopted him after his bilateral TPLO surgeries and a bit of weight gain (136 lbs).  Sloooowly gained weight to be 180. Sweeeeet, sweet boy who looooved his mama!  Like Murphy, very laid back and gentle. Lost my baby boy at a couple weeks before his 8th birthday after lots of health stuff (spinal cord stroke, diagnosis of severe Wobbler's, degenerative myelopathy and then a torn meniscus).  Miss him beyond words.  Size:  Approx  33" at the shoulder and 180 pounds.  MAAAAJOR DROOL and MAAAAJOR eating and drinking MESS!  … but totally worth it! 

 

AM Brody:  Rescue.  Epileptic and severely hard of hearing. Adopted at 6 mos old (now 2-1/2 years)    Epilepsy is now stable (hasn't had a seizure in ONE YEAR!! YAY!!).  Yet another loving and very laid back boy who loves his mama!   Size:  Approx 32-33" at the shoulder and  221 pounds so far.  Doesn't drool, per se… but a MAAAAAJOR MESSY DRINKER!

 

Chi-mix Daisy:  Rescue.  Okay… she doesn't count in the AM/EM "thing"… but I wanted to give her an "honorable mention."  Found on a major 6-land highway.  Nobody claimed her.  Adopted at approx 6 yrs.  Is in TOTAL charge of the three GIANTS that she lives with!!!  Size:  Approx 6" at the shoulder 13 pounds.

 

So…. In essence… to summarize as quickly as possible…  My 2 EMs and my 2 AMs were/are extremely SIMILAR in many ways (i.e.  pretty much ALL ways!!)!

 

I know you didn't ask… but I just wanted to throw in… In the future… which would I "chose?"  "The one who needs the home the most" would normally be my response.   BUT… I will admit.. … that the more negativity I see (i.e. breed-bashing, etc.)… the LESS apt I am to remain with the breed initiating the negativity. I also know that I'm FAR from being the only one.  I sincerely hope this will be kept in mind. 

 

Again… if you have any further questions or want to discuss this further, please feel completely free to contact me at MichelleParlier@yahoo.com.  I don't want to tarnish Eileen's thread.  I truly wish to be more like her.   

 

Godspeed Eileen!!  You will always be remembered for being a woman of intergrety and fairness.  The DOGS are what it's about!!!

 

Michelle Parlier

 



__________________
~American Mastiff, Murphy, Flying W Farms (B: 1.23.05) CGC, TDI, Inc.
~Chihuahua mix, Daisy (B: 2003?) ~ Adopted 11.23.09

~Epileptic German Shepherd mix, Annie (B: 10.4.04) ~ Adopted 5.06 AHF ~ RIP 5.17.08
~English Mastiff, Frankie (B: 11.11.01) ~ Adopted 10.07 GLMR ~ RIP 10.28.09
~Epileptic & Deaf American Mastiff, Brody, Orion Farms (B: 9.11.09) ~ Adopted 4.2.10 ~ RIP 6.15.13
~English Mastiff, Maggie (B: 10.17.05) ~ Adopted 12.06 GLMR ~ RIP 12.1.2013
steveoifer

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Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 9,228
Reply with quote  #4 

Michelle,

 

It appears that you wish to inhibit further discussion, by stating this will be your only post on the subject.

 

I've never been one to control, or limit dialog and if you choose not to respond to this, or any other post which may follow, it's certainly your call.

 

Your examples are fine, but anecdotal.

 

I've posted the main reason for the AMMA resentment (yes I coined the acronym) stemming from many Mastiff fanciers. It's well known and never addressed by the AMMA community!

 

All we hear out of AMMA supporters, is how terrible most Mastiff folks are when they hear of someone who owns the AMMA.

 

The valid causes for the resentments are NEVER considered, or discussed by AMMA followers......PERIOD!

 

Until an honest open dialog can be established, this resentment will continue, or grow to greater heights.

 

Tip toeing about the issue won't cut it, and ignoring valid issues surrounding the creation of the AMMA, as it affects the Mastiff proper, will only intensify resentments.

 

Organize your friends & fanciers in your AMMA circles and then press for a name change. Remove American from the Mastiff, as the American Mastiff IS the Mastiff in America, not a cross bred Anatolian that's claimed to drool a bit less than the Mastiff proper. Call it the Anatolian Mastiff, perhaps the Anatolian breed club will be offended, perhaps not! In any case, why would you believe that calling your cross the American Mastiff would not be offensive to all legitimate Mastiff fanciers in America?

 

People who buy cross bred dogs, have little understanding of time honored standards and the well established history, which gave rise to the Mastiff in America. This history is well over 100 years in the making, with the American Mastiff Club being formed in the latter part of the 1800's!

 

For a bunch of clueless newcomers to come along and breed a Mastiff to an Anatolian and then not remember the actual recorded pedigrees of those dogs involved, or loosely recall several Mastiff pedigrees, tells this poster that little regard was given during that development, if one can even call it a development.

 

Those who then bought the false advertising ( e.g. "just like the English Mastiff, but without the drool") were vulnerable, since people who buy such crosses are also clueless about standards & historical meaning. There are many pet shop mentalities out there, especially if they are buying their first dog, or those who could care less about pedigrees, or puppy mill products.

 

Therefore, a group gets formed, which is comprised of a commonality, in that you all own AMMA's, but that's as far as it goes, since the reasoning of all such owners, is based on smoke & mirrors, feeding off of the Mastiff proper, and not recognizing the nuances in form & temperament, which delineates & separates the cross from the Mastiff proper!

 

Rarely will you find dedicated owners of other pedigreed breeds, who would buy such a cross. The target group are those who are clueless newbies, who then organize other clueless newbies and then erroneously believe they have legitimacy through numbers. They remain clueless fanciers despite their mutually supportive groups. It's the sole reason why they can't debate this issue fairly with the Mastiff community, since they are on shaky ground with a weak foundation.

 

It's a lot easier to just state how unfair the Mastiff community has been toward them and how terrible most of the people in Mastiffs are to AMMA owners!

 

Riding on the coattails of the Mastiff is akin to counterfeit goods, which are seized at customs when trying to enter the country. The only difference, is that because of the laws, the AMMA people can perpetrate this moral crime and get away with it!

 

But don't expect the legitimate Mastiff community to embrace the concept, even though we recognize that the dogs themselves are innocent. I might add, that you shouldn't believe that Eileen was in favor of the AMMA's introduction, just because she was nice to you and your dogs.

 

So as you've established in your last post, "this will be my one and only post on this subject", which does not surprise me, as it's a tactic that eliminates further exploration, something AMMA people need, in order to maintain their confusion & irresponsible offenses, which Mastiff fanciers must contend with in the foreseeable future! 

 

I might add, that owning rescues is a noble pursuit and I commend you for that, but owning the Mastiff proper alongside the AMMA, does not legitimize your concept of the AMMA, or enhance your understanding of the issues surrounding the subject.

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 9,228
Reply with quote  #5 
http://books.google.com/books?id=zUw9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA928&lpg=PA928&dq=The+American+Mastiff%22,+by+Charles+C+marshall&source=bl&ots=65RfP06s8u&sig=bGw0Ch5l-4_mBGhZhJitD_18S-c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OVb0T9-rE4qm6wH3kZHEBg&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20American%20Mastiff%22%2C%20by%20Charles%20C%20marshall&f=false

Please note the club name and name of this article, which clearly demonstrates dominion of the rightful name of American Mastiff belonging solely to the Mastiff in America!

If AMMA fanciers can't understand the angst felt by almost every Mastiff fancier, due to the usurping of our breed's rightful name by your founding BYB, then you and your compatriots need to look long & hard into the moral mirror!
__________________

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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